They come to me, I don't seek them out:
Mad: Is there any objective reason why we should steal from the well off and give it to the less off, or is there only "moral" reasons?
Punk Patriot: First- it's not stealing. Taxes are the dues you pay to be part of the "civilization club."
Mad: But I never consented to that
Punk Patriot: Well, go live in the woods
you don't have to pay taxes if you don't earn income
Mad: But I need income to live
Punk Patriot: do you?
For food, shelter, insurance, so forth
Punk Patriot: Why don't you try earning a different monetary unit?
You're earning government money
They are federal reserve notes
those are what are taxable
Mad: The government outlaws all other forms of units
Punk Patriot: not really
Mad: Didn't you hear what happened in North Carolina?
Punk Patriot: There are alternative currencies all over the USA
Mad: Bartering is IRS taxable
Punk Patriot: only if you get a recipt
Mad: If for example
I wanted to print my own US dollars
They'd arrest me
Punk Patriot: Yeah, that would be fraudulant
you'd have to come up with a different currency
Mad: Which the central bankers would crush once they become viable
Why do you like central bankers?
Punk Patriot: I don't like central bankers. How would the central bankers crush your alt currency, exactly?
Are you aware of what happened to the Demurge currency in Austria back during the last depression?
Punk Patriot: Wikipedia's Entry on Alternative Currencies in the USA
Mad: The central banks crushed that currency
Punk Patriot: We don't have a central bank.
Our dollars are backed by Debt
Mad: Yes we do
Punk Patriot: Not really
Mad: It's called the Federal Reserve
Punk Patriot: Yeh, sort of
Mad: Also http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/03/20/us-crime-currency-idUKTRE72J46L20110320
Punk Patriot: I understand where you're coming from with that argument, but that central bank isn't like other central banks
also, the State Bank of North Dakota is public, not private
Mad: Well yes, it's half the way it should be
Punk Patriot: and has been extremely successful
Mad: Ideally, the private banks should just run their own currency schemes
Punk Patriot: not at gaining riches, but at keeping the economy out there stable
Mad: I want a return to free banking
Punk Patriot: Free market banking?
Punk Patriot: But the Federal Reserve is a private entity
you're getting fucked by privatization right now
Mad: Well it's a quasi private public institution
Punk Patriot: Our money supply is private
Mad: I want to go back to before the federal reserve
When it was entirely private
Punk Patriot: It's was actually entirely public
Punk Patriot: yes
Mad: Free Banking was entirely private
Wilson changed that
Punk Patriot: Nope
Punk Patriot: Sorry.
States had their own currency
Along with banks
Punk Patriot: Yes, before the fed, the currency was public
Mad: This was better
Currency was competitive
Punk Patriot: OH! States had their own currency, you're talking articles of confederation style
Yeah, those currencies were all public too
Punk Patriot: yes
Many currencies were private and supplied by the banks
Punk Patriot: That's different
Punk Patriot: That system sucked, by the way
Mad: Although the period from 1837 to 1864 in the U.S. is often referred to as the Free Banking Era, the term is something of a misnomer, for it refers not to a general system of "free" banking in the literal sense described previously, but rather to various state banking systems based on so-called "free banking" laws, which, though they made it unnecessary for new entrants to secure charters (each of which was subject to a vote by the state legislature), nonetheless restricted their undertakings in important ways. Most importantly, U.S. "free" banks were denied the right to establish branch networks, and had to "secure" their notes by purchasing and surrendering to state banking authorities certain securities those authorities deemed eligible for the purpose.
No it didn't
Why do you think it sucked?
Punk Patriot: Yes, it did.
Because it created bank rushes, and unstable economies
There was some instability yes
But it was worth the price of freedom imo
Punk Patriot: Without regulation, banks are free to fuck over their customers
Mad: If the customers don't like it, go to a different bank
Punk Patriot: But the bank could prevent you from transferring that money
and without any regulatory agency to go to, they could just steal from you
Mad: They could
But that would be bad business
Punk Patriot: this "freedom" you speak of is really unattractive
yeah, and who's going to stop them?
They will simply stop going there
Punk Patriot: how?
Mad: When it's known they steal
Punk Patriot: and then lose everything they've invested in the bank?
Mad: Who will still go there?
Punk Patriot: hardly
the bank gets away with all your money, and you get nothing
Mad: If need be, they can simply go to the branch with firearms and force them to give them back their money
Punk Patriot: This "freedom" sounds a lot like barbarism
Mad: Well no
It's like when a cop comes and forces them by gunpiont to do something
But now it's just the customers
Punk Patriot: Also, how would you spend that money?
What if your grocery store was owned by the bank and you could only use that bank's money to buy groceries?
Mad: Go to a different grocery store
Punk Patriot: And the bank, free from regulation, hired a military to bomb all the other grocery stores
That would be illegal
Punk Patriot: illegal according to whom?
Punk Patriot: There's no government regulation
Mad: I'm ok with laws against murder
Punk Patriot: But that's regulation
I'm a minarchist, not an anarchist
Punk Patriot: so you agree that SOME regulation is okay?
Mad: In some rare circumstances yes
Punk Patriot: That SOME regulation is required to keep society civilized?
Mad: Depends on how you define civilized, but yes
Punk Patriot: Now, how is that government going to enforce that regulation?
If there's no revenue through taxation?
Mad: With police officers, preferably outsourced to private firms
They can use land taxation
Punk Patriot: what is to keep those police officers working in the public interest rather than the bank's interests?
Mad: Pay them more
Punk Patriot: pay them more with what?
Punk Patriot: from where?
Mad: Or materials
Food, materials, slaves, etc.
Punk Patriot: slaves?
what about freedom?
I'm not for slavery
I'ms peaking hypothetically
Many societies employed slaves
Punk Patriot: Right, but this hypothetical one has everybody free. So no slaves
Mad: And there'd be some form of taxation, land taxation, so it's voluntary
Alright, no slaves
Punk Patriot: so you support some taxation to pay for government?
Mad: If it's voluntary yes
And it's not redistributed
Punk Patriot: isn't hiring a police force to keep the banks from bombing grocery stores a "redistribution of wealth"?
Mad: In a way maybe
But very minimal
Just enough to keep up from barbarism
Punk Patriot: Now, do you really think that a bunch of poor farmers, whose raw goods are worth very little under capitalism, are going to be able to generate enough revenue using a private bank's own currency, to stop the bank from running everything?
by hiring a police force?
Mad: They can storm the banks themselves
And hold them at gunpoint
Punk Patriot: And with the collpase of the bank, the currency becomes worthless
Mad: Or tell their congressional representative that they're being unfairly exploited
Punk Patriot: and what is to prevent the congressional representative from being in the pocket of the banks?
Mad: That's the point though, once a new bank forms, they'll be more ethnical
They can be voted out of office
Punk Patriot: without regulation, banks could spend lavishly on congressional reps
Mad: Vote them out
No regulation needed
Punk Patriot: And they'll be replaced with more people who are in the bank's pocket
if not at first, then eventually
Mad: Well that's the folly of democracy in a way
Punk Patriot: and if they decide to go against the banks, the banks will hire assassins
Mad: Would they not hire assassins to kill the regulators?
Punk Patriot: they did that too
and the people who passed the regulations into law
Mad: But it still happened
So they may try
Punk Patriot: and put their heads on pikes as a warning to others
Mad: Of course
Under a free market
There is no monopolies
Punk Patriot: how is that?
Only government creates monopolies
Punk Patriot: That's not true
Mad: Have you heard of the Dutch East Indian Company?
Punk Patriot: I have, I know that whole story, and have read Life Inc
Govt creates corporate monopolies
Do you agree with Life Inc's analysis?
Punk Patriot: Partially
The thing of it is, is this:
If you allow govt and private wealth to collude, you get monopoly
if you let private power have free reign, you get monopoly too
Mad: What do you disagree with? I'm curious as to that
Punk Patriot: if you give the government all economic power, you get monopoly
I view government as on equal footing with corporations and businesses. They are both corporate power structures. One is run democratically, and one is run fascistically.
Governments are unions.
Mad: Where did Life Inc get it wrong though? I think he has it spot on it's government and not the free market
Punk Patriot: Corporations are unions too
I think that's shallow analysis
Punk Patriot: to pin everything on govt
Life Incs analysis is this: the free market is evil, and will eat itsself alive. If we let it run it's course, it will die. That's not what you're arguing.
Mad: Is it?
Punk Patriot: yes
Mad: I read it
He said government and central authority are to blame
The very same author said we should have let the banks die too (I agree), and let a new economy form
Punk Patriot: If you eliminate democratic government, corporate power becomes the new government
here's the thing-- yes, governments allow corporations to exist-- within governments.
Mad: That's fine, I want a government subject to profit/loss anyway.
Punk Patriot: The Dutch East Indian Company did not need permission to operate in the USA as the government here
Mad: It did from the crown
Punk Patriot: But it didn't need it.
Mad: It got the permission though
The Crown would have killed them all
Punk Patriot: They could have hired their own military and had a coup against the monarchy
Mad: Yeah but remember
Government has the real power
Punk Patriot: the deal that was struck allowed both power structures to exist symbiotically
Mad: They simply let corporations run amok via long leash theory
Punk Patriot: Business is a stateless nation
Corporations are stateless nations
Mad: Run very efficiently imo
Punk Patriot: yes, Fascism is extremely efficient
Mad: We agree there
Punk Patriot: Look-- a corporation is the textbook definition of fascism
Mad: Then what's your solution? You said you're against government having all the economic power.
Punk Patriot: Yes.
I'm a Democratic Socialist
Mad: Socialism sucks
Punk Patriot: No, communism sucks
Mad: That too
So, what would be your ideal economic system
Give me some details
Since "socialism" is also in the eye of the beholder
Punk Patriot: My ideal economic system is a mixed market economy, and a democratic socialism government and economy
Mad: What is a democratic economy?
Punk Patriot: This means democratically run workplaces
Would you democratically run a nuclear power plant?
That sounds dangerou
Punk Patriot: Actually, democratically run power plants are less dangerous
Mad: Which ones?
Punk Patriot: Union run ones for starters
Mad: Democratically running dangerous facilities is a recipe for disaster
Punk Patriot: But it's not a recipe for disaster
it's far safer
Mad: Unions are only democratic nomially, many are centralized and more meritically run, which I have no problem with.
Punk Patriot: union run nuclear facilities are safer. They report more incidents to regulators, and know that they are protected by both the union and the government from the corporation by whistleblower status
Mad: But that's not a democratically run power plant
Punk Patriot: yes it is
Mad: That's a union power plant
With it's own centralized beachwear
Punk Patriot: beachwear?
Mad: AFL-CIO and SEIU are not democracies (anymore), they've long become nominally democratic.
Punk Patriot: That's a strawman
Mad: How so?
I don't know where beachwear came from
Punk Patriot: Because you're attacking the organization, which is a separate entity from the workplaces in which unions exist
Mad: I'm not attacking them
I'm complimenting them
I'm against Democracy
Punk Patriot: So you're a fascist?
I have some overlap though
My ideal governance system would be Singapore
Punk Patriot: REALLY?!
You should move there then
Mad: Yes really!
I wish I could
I'd rather help import that here though
Punk Patriot: I do not want that at all
Mad: But I want to see a democratically run nuclear power plant
Punk Patriot: my brother is living there currently, and he says it sucks
there are checkpoints where you are searched by the military to make sure you don't have chewing gum
Mad: In what way does it suck?
Yes, what's the problem?
They need to maintain the city and make it clean
Punk Patriot: He went and saw a rock and roll band, and the band wasn't allowed to dance on stage
that doesn't sound like freedom at all
if you spit in public you get caned
Mad: That's fine
How else will they stop spitting?
Punk Patriot: That's not liberty
that sounds like the most oppressive government possible
Mad: Yes but they have great business freedom
Punk Patriot: fuck business freedom
Mad: It's the heart of an economy
Where would you be without corporations?
Punk Patriot: without personal liberty and civil liberties business freedom is worthless
Punk Patriot: I would be happier without most corporations
Mad: We wouldn't have any of modern civilization without it
Punk Patriot: yes
True, government is a corporation
also, Land O Lakes is a democratically run collective
it's super inefficient
everybody get's paid the same
Mad: I'm not surprised
Punk Patriot: and nobody is fired
Mad: Democratically run collectives are inefficient
Punk Patriot: and they've been around for over 100 years
Mad: So then, we agree democratically run workplaces are inefficient?
Punk Patriot: and manage to get their product into almost every supermarket in the USA
no, I was being sarcastic
Where would computers be
Punk Patriot: They run a top-notch business
Mad: Without corporations?
Land o lakes is also not a power plant though
Punk Patriot: you're right. they make butter
Mad: Much safer
Democracy is fine when the worst case scenario isn't much to worry about
When it's a nuclear meltdown
Punk Patriot: However-- data and history prove that unionized power plants are safer
same with coal mines
I won't argue there
Punk Patriot: Unions are mini-democracies within fascist states
collectives are full fledged democratic workplaces
Mad: Sort of, they're authoritarian as well nowadays, which is good
SEIU was recently working with Kaiser to crush a new union forming
Punk Patriot: Anyways, i'd rather work for Land O Lakes than some corporation that's going to fuck me out of my pension
Mad: Where would computers be without corporations?
Punk Patriot: Where would you be without the US Govt?
Mad: Much happier
Punk Patriot: Doubtful
Mad: No, I'm pretty sure
Punk Patriot: more likely you'd be in a slave camp
Mad: How so?
Punk Patriot: are you rich?
Mad: Define rich
Punk Patriot: do you make more than $1,000,000 a year?
Mad: Oh no
Punk Patriot: do you make more than 100,000 a year?
Punk Patriot: well, it's no wonder that you're a fucking fascist then
Punk Patriot: You're on the winning side of that coin
I'm on the losing side
Mad: Oh well
That is life isn't it?
Also I'm not a fascist
Punk Patriot: I was born poor, and since our "free market" does not actually allow for class mobility like the horatio algers fairy tales lead us to believe, I will remain poor
We have plenty of social mobility in the US
Punk Patriot: no we dont
Mad: Really? I see al ot of people move up after university
Punk Patriot: I have come out of college saddled with debt, and without a college degree
Mad: well what did you major in?
Punk Patriot: I cannot get a good paying job because I don't have a degree
I cannot get my degree because I have too much student debt
What did you major in?
That is very important
Punk Patriot: I cannot get more loans, because I "have not made progress towards my degree."
I majored in music. That's not important. Majors are meaningless. It's your master's degree that's important
I would like to go on to law school.
Mad: I only have a B.S. and I'm doing very well. It matters very much what you chose to major in
Punk Patriot: I will not be able to afford to, unless I get a full boat scholarship
Why should I pay for your poor choices? No offense.
Punk Patriot: It would not have mattered
Mad: This can't be changed
It's the law of life
The losers stay losers unless they have will power
Punk Patriot: NO, its a law of capitalism
Mad: In life
Punk Patriot: the poor remain poor, and the rich remain rich
Mad: There's a few winners
and a whole lot of losers
Punk Patriot: that's capitialsim
Mad: That's fine, capitalism works very well
Punk Patriot: If you're on the winning side, it works great for you
For the bottom 60% of americans, it fucking sucks
Mad: Yes, look at it from my perspective
Punk Patriot: We are effectively slaves
That is not freedom
Mad: We're successful because we worked hard, and we're being rewarded for it
You can stop working and go on welfare
Punk Patriot: Hardly
I can barely afford to support myself now
Mad: It is not my fault their ancestors made poor decisions
Punk Patriot: That's not freedom, or equality, or anything that America stands for
Mad: It is freedom
You have the ability to rise above your status
Punk Patriot: America is founded on the idea that people can create their own future, that people are all created equal, that nobody should be held to account for their father's sins
Mad: Well then, I wonder why we had slaves?
That seems like a glaring contradiction.
Punk Patriot: We had slaves because black people were not seen as people, they were seen as cattle
So not all men were "created" equal
Which is true
Punk Patriot: Today, we recognize that all people are people
Mad: Some people are inherently superior to others
Punk Patriot: or at least that's the dominant paradigm
No, some people are born with a spear pointed at their throat, and some people are born holding the spear
Some are superior to others
Compare Albert Einstein to a Down Syndrome kid
I'm going with the former, given how much he contributed to society, unlike the latter, who only was a leech
Punk Patriot: I've got to go. It's good to know that you're a fascist.
Mad: I'm not
But I'm sorry you're angry at success
we can't have it all though
Punk Patriot: I'm not angry at success. I'm angry at systemic inequity
Mad: All societies are highly unequal
The strong rule over the weak
Punk Patriot: and the idea that those who have the misfortune of being born poor should be crushed completely
Mad: They need us more than we need them
I don't think they should be crushed
Unless they try to take over
I hope we don't get a repeat of Tsarist Russia
Punk Patriot: I do too. Which is why social spending should not be cut
Mad: I disagree
Force of arms is enough to put them down
Punk Patriot: you're out of touch with reality
The fewer of the rich there are, the more of the poor there are.
Mad: Or middle class
Punk Patriot: the rich get exponentially richer
Mad: You're forgetting them
Punk Patriot: we don't have a middle class in the USA anymore
Mad: I'm middle class
We still exist
Punk Patriot: No you're not.
Mad: Oh, what am I?
Punk Patriot: Upper class. Middle class makes 46,000 a year
Well ok, maybe so
I'm loving it though
Why should I give it up?
Punk Patriot: Nobody is saying you should give it up.
Mad: But I will have to
If more people become upper class
Punk Patriot: You have a right to be successful. Not at the expense of those who put you there
Mad: My wealth is dispirited
I put myself here
Punk Patriot: That's bullshit. No man is an island
Mad: Poor welfare moms did not put me here
Punk Patriot: yes they did
Mad: Oh really?
Punk Patriot: what do you do for a living
what is your trade or industry?
Mad: Stock broker (yes, I'm sure you'll think I'm evil now)
I'm part of the class that keeps your economy pumping
Punk Patriot: HAHAHAH!!! That's bullshit, but whatever
Mad: Not bullshit.
Punk Patriot: So is there a particular field that you trade?
a particular market rather?
Mad: Pharmaceutical industry
Punk Patriot: okay
The pharmaceutical industry make their money by doing what?
Mad: Plus, I'm not rich, I only make 300,000 USD, which isn't that much really.
Punk Patriot: And then?
Mad: Selling them
Punk Patriot: To whom?
Mad: The general public
The ones with insurance at least
Punk Patriot: And the biggest insurance provider in the USA is?
Mad: Probably Aetna
Punk Patriot: And the biggest consumer of pharmaceuticals is?
Actually no, it's Medicare
Mad: Oh well, yeah
Punk Patriot: and the biggest consumer is old people
Mad: I was talking privately spekaing
Punk Patriot: who are on social security
Punk Patriot: I'm talking "real life"
Mad: So am I
I'm not against Medicare
Punk Patriot: Right, because it makes you rich
It's a needed program is it not?
Punk Patriot: Welfare moms are often on medicare.
Punk Patriot: sorry,
Mad: They're on Medicaid
Punk Patriot: medicaid
Mad: Which is a terrible program btw
Punk Patriot: I agree.
Medicare should be expanded to cover everybody.
Mad: But if we did that
80% of our economy would be Medicare
Punk Patriot: and you'd be fuckin' rolling in it
Mad: Maybe, but not when our economy crashes
Punk Patriot: our economy already crashed
Mad: Not for my community
Punk Patriot: it will soon enough
Mad: Not if we get the right people in
Punk Patriot: See, when poor white trash like me can't afford to by the things that you produce, revenue for you goes down
Mad: I agree
I wouldn't call you white trash though
Punk Patriot: I am white trash. I accept that. I work in a fucking factory, and i'm effectively a college drop out (not by my choice)
College isn't for everybody
Sent at 3:03 PM on Saturday
Punk Patriot: I would agree with that. If we had universal education, people like me, who actually WANT to learn could go and learn and become successful without debt.
Mad: I think though, you would fare much better under a free market.
Punk Patriot: Those people who think of college as a four year party binge would get kicked out, and prevent degree inflation from happening
Mad: Ok, but here's the rub with free universal higher ed
What about the people who don't utilize it well? What do we do with them?
Punk Patriot: What do you mean?
As you put it
Punk Patriot: The four year party people?
Mad: The kids who use it as a party binge?
Punk Patriot: And then they can go on to a trade school and become succesful plumbers or electricians
Mad: Ok sure
But I have to pay 4 years
Of University for those folks
That is a raw deal
Punk Patriot: Not really.
In france there is an aptitude exam. If you don't pass, you have to go to a private institution
or a trade school
Punk Patriot: the thing is though, I know a woman from france who did not pass, went to trade school, and is now the captain of a research vessle, and she makes $150,000 a year, plus has 6 months off every year
Mad: We have plenty of trade schools here
Punk Patriot: *vessel
Mad: though a lot of them are scams
Punk Patriot: exactly
Punk Patriot: they are scams because they are not effectively regulated
Mad: I actually agree there
And they suck off tax dollars
Circumventing pell grants in thew rong direction
Punk Patriot: absolutely
An instance in which socialism is bailing capitalism out
Mad: You're right
How would we pay for it?
Punk Patriot: Taxation.
Mad: The Euro Zone is about to collapse
Punk Patriot: So is the USA
Mad: Tax and spend social democracy haven't been sustainable\
Punk Patriot: At the heart of both crises has been the banks funneling money upwards to the very richest few
Mad: I agree
we need to get rid of central banks
Ala Ron Paul
Punk Patriot: I agree with that.
The Gold Standard is just another arbitrary monetary unit
How to Fix Trickle Down Economics & Make It Work
The Gold Standard is stable though
Sent at 3:11 PM on Saturday
Punk Patriot: not really. The Gold Standard artificially limits the money supply. Plus, you still end up with the same problems. The Fed (a private bank) doesn't print money. It lends credit. The Treasury prints money. Neither the gold nor the money are worth anything. That is a mass delusion that we all participate in.
What's yoru solution? If I may ask
There's a flaw with your video
You're not taking into account the intellectual deficit the poor have.
Punk Patriot: I'm poor. Do I have an intellectual deficit?
Punk Patriot: and do you think that they intellectual deficit may be caused by the fact that their schools are underfunded?
Mad: But you're only one person
We overfund our public education system
Punk Patriot: also, stupid people still buy thngs
Mad: Triple them to inner city schools
Punk Patriot: that's laughable!
Mad: No we do
We throw money at problems
Thinking they'll get solved
Punk Patriot: I grew up in a rural area. Our shool almost collapsed financially because our town council was unwilling to raise property taxes by $1 per capita
Mad: What happened?
If I may inquire
Punk Patriot: We lobbied our town council ceaselessly, and they raised taxes. And our school was saved.
Why wouldn't they raise the 1 dollar tax?
Punk Patriot: And nobody even noticed that extra dollar
They wouldn't raise it because they were Republicans who thought that all taxation was theft
Well in LA
Which is run by Democrats
Punk Patriot: Corrupt Democrats
Mad: They fund poor schools there quite lavishly
And still they're dumb kids
Perhaps they're just born stupid?
Punk Patriot: By what standard are they dumb?
Mad: Lack of knowledge and reason
Punk Patriot: That seems to me to be more of a problem with curriculum
Mad: And why would you assume Los Angeles politicians are corrupt (that was rhetorical)
Punk Patriot: if you fund a crappy curriculum and teach to standardized tests, you get standardized idiocy
Mad: Ok what should be done?
Punk Patriot: I am not familiar with the LA school system.
Mad: Ok, in a broad sense
What would your educational strategy be?
Punk Patriot: What I would do with any school system though, is make sure that there is an emphasis on 1) the scientific method 2) critical thinking skills 3) debate 4) civic engagement
Funding is secondary to curriculum
Mad: Why those four?
Punk Patriot: because you need to teach people to think for them to learn
Mad: But doesn't society need burger flippers?
Punk Patriot: I was lucky to have several teachers who challenged me to think rather than believe
I think that society would not collapse in the absence of burger flippers
Mad: I did too, but I went to private school
I think so
Punk Patriot: I went to public school.
Mad: We need an intellectual devoid class to do our dirty work
Punk Patriot: First I disagree
Mad: It's kind of like our military
We need a class of people who are stupid and only listen to orders
Punk Patriot: wow, that's really dark
Mad: And we need the intelligent people who will give the orders, and are able to interpret them
Life is quite dark, I accepted this long ago
But why do you disagree?
Punk Patriot: What of those who are poor and intelligent who cannot afford to go to private schools?
And those who are stupid and rich, like George W Bush?
Mad: I believe society should make merit based scholarships
I wouldn't mind if the government funded them
Punk Patriot: That sounds like socialism
Mad: A bit
Punk Patriot: are you sure you want to redistribute the wealth like that?
Mad: It's a minor amount
Ideally, I'd want their parents to pay on their own
Punk Patriot: Why should you steal from the stupid rich people who can AFFORD to go to private schools just to pay for poor people? They shouldn't have been born poor. End of story, right?
Mad: But if they can't, and their child is truly deserving, sure. But most children are pretty dumb, so it'll be of lowe cost
Ideally I agree
Punk Patriot: Wow.
Mad: Their parents are responsible for their poverty
But I agree there's exceptions
As few as they may be
Punk Patriot: And their parents's parents are responsible for their parents's poverty.
Punk Patriot: I've really got to go.
Mad: If they're deserving
I'm not an idealist though, I'm a free market advocate by principle, with some exceptions